The Prestidigitator

I can relate to everything to you said. As an outspoken Atheist (except in front of my Dad), I am often confronted with silly questions about deities and other imaginary beings. One such question is – How can you be moral without a God?

My answer is (paraphrasing many other outspoken Atheists) – So you’re saying that without the fear of a God and the imminent threat of eternal damnation, you wouldnt be able to do any good? Here I am, a nice decent boy who will never hurt a fly, and who doesnt need a God to be this way. Doesnt that make me a better person by default than you? (And perhaps a bit more intelligent?)

p.s. a guy who wants to sleep with 72 virgins is a pervert, and a God who gives him that is a pervert and voyuer. Disturbing. Lets all go worship him like morons then shall we?

@Prestidigitator:
Well, I wouldn’t mind if our religions toed as adventurous a line as Dr. Who’s. But if Satan was The Master, then things will be difficult for sure. And which country are you talking of btw?

@Baphomet:
Umm… hey, maybe you are right. But if self restraint and inherent morality was taken into account for doing away with God and religion, don’t you think there’s a very real chance of us killing each other in a matter of days? I agree with you, but just wondering dude…

@presti:
I think that there can be arguments for believing, even if it’s only, “I believe so that I don’t feel alone and meaningless.” or “I believe because I can’t picture a world without a God.” These are all fine by me.
What really gets to me, though, is the constant need churches see to convince people. Not only their followers, but also people who don’t want to have to do anything with religion. I don’t want to be converted, thanks a lot.
I remember this one conversation I had with a guy in Africa. Most of the people there have a very strong belief and I had many a discussion about my atheism. In the course of one of them, this guy told me that I convinced him and asked, what I thought about that. [I don't think I convinced him, he just really wanted into my pants... Anyway...] I told him that I didn’t really care about that, that I was surprised that he would give up his belief in the course of one discussion and that, most of all, I didn’t discuss this to convince him. He didn’t get it. He couldn’t understand that one wouldn’t want to impose one’s worldview on somebody else. Great work from the missionaries.

About Dr. Who and other such things. I don’t mind. Let the church do what they want. It doesn’t dampen my enthusiasm for the show. If they think they can work it (which I think they couldn’t), let them try. I think it’s rather pathetic, but that isn’t my concern.
I on the other hand, immensly enjoy The Narnia Chronicles and I don’t care about the hidden or not-so-hidden christian message. So, I’m probably doing the same thing, the other way round and only for me instead of for my following [which is HUGE].

Stories are what you make of them and if you don’t let the church make the story for you, everything’s fine.

@bApH:
Good point about the moral. One of the things that really bothered me when I wrote about the Religion and Ethic Classes on my blog.
But what usually gets me more is the question, or better statement, “But you have to believe in _something_!” gnaaaah
I used to reply, I believe in science. But nowadays I just keep replying, “No, I don’t.”

@indisch:
This thinking really scares me – are people really so “bad” that without the fear of a God, who punishes them, they would go off and start slaughtering any-/everybody? I don’t believe in god, I don’t do it, am I such an exception?
But I don’t think that we have to do away with god and religion, at all. Just with evangelisation. If it would be possible to accept that people believe different things and that they are equal in worth and that we don’t need to convince anyone from our worldview, then everything would be alright, wouldn’t it?

Oh, wow, sorry for the massive comment…

@Indisch: I am an Athiest pacifist. Some of the biggest crimes in history were committed in the name of religion and God. So really, do we need more of that? One of the arguments that I’ve read that supports your contention – That Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao were Atheists and that they slaughtered millions, is a moot point. They were insane.

@Kalafudra: You know what other shows will be cool for Christian interpretation and marketing?
- House MD: The pill-popping, wise cracking doctor has a diagnostic team (aka disciples) and he does say some really profound monologues. Cuddy can be Magdalene for the conspiracy freaks.
- Lost: This wont be too hard. The island = purgatory. Or even Limbo. Though John Paul said in an edict that Limbo doesnt exist. So thats out.
- Battlestar Galactica: Noah’s flood washed out a large chunk of humanity. So did the Cylons.

@bApH:
Probably the people who kill in the name of religion were insane as well?

The shows are some good suggestions…
- House would make a great Jesus. And I like the Cuddy touch. I like the idea that the bible’s Jesus and Magdalene had the same relationship…

- Lost: the island can still be hell… especially in the second season, when it’s boring hell…

- BSG: *lol* Very true… very true.

Let me think about some more:
- Angel: The lonely, special guy (Angel/Jesus) with only a few followers and supporters fights for the salvation of humanity, having a love which can never happen (Buffy/Magdalene).

- My Name is Earl: see Angel, without the love that can never happen and that he only fights for his own salvation, with the salvation of the people around him (more or less) as a side effect. Plus: he has a beard.

[...] Anyway, I’m pretty occupied with that, so don’t expect an elaborate post today. [If you want to read something long that I've written today, head over to presti and read my comment...] [...]

wow, talk about an easy discussion starter …

@baph: there’s a whole lot of controversy on whether it was 72 “virgins” or apples or what-not. Houris, referred to in muslim texts, are not so much virgins as “nonhumans” who can look like both men and women. In any case, I think you’ll find several otherwise non perverted people who don’t find anything particularly repugnant about sleeping with 72 virgins.

@kalafudra: there’s a sinfest cartoon that might interest u, as far as the “alone and meaningless” thing goes… http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=194 . It’s about how Slinky tells God he’s just a crutch, and God tells Slinky he’s lame. Oh, and if this guy told you he’d “converted” chances are he wasn’t very much into it in the first place, because if he really did believe he’s unlikely to risk the eternal damnation that would follow from his betrayal just for getting into your pants .
Also, would you really be happy with a church that didn’t believe in evangelising, but still led many of its African(among other) followers to death by hiv-infection by telling them that using their one effective means of prevention(condoms) was a sin? Or outlawed stem cell research? Or prevented any one from criticizing it?

As for the innate morality of mankind, I doubt most atheists are “evil” or even simply without a moral compass… none I know are, at the very least. Oh, and whether Hitler was an atheist is actually a grey area: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

@ramblingperfectionist:
The cartoon’s cute.
As I said before, I don’t think I really convinced this guy. But what is so remarkable about it (for me), is that he couldn’t understand that you could discuss different point of views without trying to convince the other party involved…

There’s many things I don’t like about the catholic or basically most christian religions (like their handling of condoms et al. as you mention above). But that’s their point of view, I can’t actually expect them to change without being an utter hypocrite. Meaning: If I don’t want to be converted, I can’t act like I want to convert church or anybody else (see categorical imperative).
Which doesn’t mean that I can’t critisise other viewpoints. I still can, and I think it’s one of the most important things to do in life. But I also have to accept that there are different viewpoints.

The thing that gets me most about religion is after all that they believe they know the only truth, whereas I believe that there’s no such thing. So, maybe I’m wrong, who knows?